This is in these kind of situations where we see the differences between American and European people. Us, European, we’re not giving a fuck! If that disturbs you, just fart and relax.
slainer68 —
While there may be different mores on what is appropriate in different countries, this was a conference in the US. But in Europe it’s OK to defend making minorities in a community feel uncomfortable based on objectified stereotypes? Hadn’t realized that was a cultural advantage.
Try this then, next time you’re Stateside, stop by any predominantly African American neighborhood such as Harlem in New York City, do a presentation discussing how American’s sexual prudishness is a form of servitude to outdated cultural Puritanism. To underscore the point of servitude, use lots of pictures of black people depicted as slaves. Don’t use actual pictures of slaves, just close approximations. Then explain that to the folks of Harlem, when they express their umbrage, to just fart and relax: it wasn’t real slavery. I suspect you’ll more than fart in your pants because their won’t be blog posts used to protest.
The real shame here is not the presentation or the half-assed apology, it’s that people are making excuses for and encouraging marginal behavior at the expense of women.
planetmcd —
The real shame here is not the presentation or the half-assed apology, it’s that people are making excuses for and encouraging marginal behavior at the expense of women.
I’m taking what is the even less popular middle-way standpoint so I get to be harassed by both sides ;-) I think both sides are right in some ways but that everything depends on the context. I don’t think that, at a major conference, material should be accepted that makes people feel uncomfortable as much as it has. That said, I don’t think the material is universally “wrong” and that, in the right context/location, it works. A bit like how I might show my wife whatever nasty picture I’ve seen online lately but I’m not going to show her parents. Context.
People on the extremes of the spectrum both disagree with the centrist approach because one side thinks their freedom to be universally arrogant is being destroyed and the other side has no tolerance for any sort of offensiveness even if it’s behind closed doors. You’ve got the “talking through a funeral” crowd versus the “don’t ever have any fun at a funeral” crowd and sadly the middle way (being quiet during the service then getting hammered at the wake) is not acceptable to both.
PeterCooper —
Peter, I agree with you that context matters and that one thing might be perfectly acceptable in the company of some, may not be appropriate in the company of others. I’m from New Jersey and I am an artist with profanity. But I don’t go into my kids kindergarten class and swear though. But were I to, the other adults would admonish me, I would risk censure of some kind or another. But what are the odds one of the other adults would say “Gee, I really think its OK to say ass-munch around five year olds.”
I understand that people want to be “edgy”, but a desire to be “edgy” does not excuse you when you go to far. When you do, its up to the community to say, don’t do that, that’s too far. When they don’t it says something about the community. Does my need to see and share images of scantily clad women trump the impression that can create with females in my profession, that they or their gender are objects for sexual amusement? This was not a private conversation and the message that is being sent here is that if you feel that there is an undercurrent of misogyny in this community, then it is your fault.
Then you have idiotic statements from a leader of the Rails community like “Yet that [male dominated] atmosphere some how doesn’t keep women from joining any of these fields [law, medicine, etc]. It’s from that empirical observation that I draw the conclusion that this argument is just bullshit.” It’s clownish on its face, but to address it, its because programming wasn’t around when women faced similar barriers in those other professions. They experienced the ugliness earlier. Mostly that barrier started coming down before he was born and certainly before he was old enough to appreciate his “instinctual attraction to the female body.” But because he doesn’t see it now doesn’t mean it was never that way. It was. Personal observation is not empirical evidence, unless it can be tested. And even if it were, his scope of personal observation in the US is rather limited in duration.
On the flip side, what do you gain by treading on the line of misogyny? Defenders of this presentation, explain this to me. Maybe it was and maybe it wasn’t misogynist, or not that misogynist, but where is the comparable upside to treading on this line? There were no pictures of male porn stars, so its a pretty easy leap to make that this had a trace at least of misogyny? What is the societal statement though? What boundary is being pushed that it merits the risk of alienating females in our profession. Spell it out.
How people want to behave in private is their business. How a community tolerates public behavior is a reflection on the community. This was public behavior and the community, in this instance, has a segment that is justifying the inappropriate nature of this talk. If I were to go into a kindergarten and spew curses, and the other adults said nothing, that is more a reflection on them. The same is true here.
planetmcd —
It seems we pretty much agree on the issue of context and the bizarre DHH post :)
However, I don’t think there’s a single idea of “public.” Blogs provide a parallel. Giles Bowkett’s blog is clearly edgy and he says some pretty contentious stuff (enough to get banned from RubyConf anyway). Someone would figure that out quickly and if they didn’t like what he says, they can avoid it. Ruby Inside, however, is a clean, family-friendly blog, so I wouldn’t start posting nudie pics there (despite quite liking them! ;-)). Likewise, if a conference is giving off edgy, dude-y vibes, you couldn’t expect to go and not be at all offended (bit like going to Burning Man, say). But if it’s a clean, formal event, you don’t expect wacky behavior (as at a 9/11 memorial dinner, say).
As someone who agrees with parts of both “sides”, my defense of the presentation is merely an anti-censorship issue for me, rather than in support of the specific presentation’s techniques. There are many things I don’t like to see or hear, but I can’t support censoring free expression (principally because censorship has been used through the ages to hold back progress). I don’t care if it’s racism, sexism, violence, or whatever, if people want to express those things in the right context (in front of tolerant, prepared people, IMO) and are prepared to face any consequences, let ‘em at it.
PeterCooper —
Matt Aimonetti is fucking prick and his sexist presentation has hurt not only the Rails but the whole Ruby community, and in end the whole open source community.
Anonymous bastard —
I think you and I Peter, are probably splitting hairs, with the difference in our perspective. My quibble is not with the idea of free speech writ large, which should be as if sacred. It is in the details of this particular event. I don’t advocate censoring Mr. Aimonetti in the sense of the governemtn coming down on him. A close analogy that I can draw is when younger, guys would razz each other all the time. Some times, someone one would cross a line, and all the others would simply say that the taunt wasn’t cool or wasn’t funny. It was a conversation/buzz killer. Something along those lines happened here. And instead of Mr. Aimonetti’s peers saying it wasn’t cool, they said it was a good one.
planetmcd —
Note for fellow Brits.. doesn’t this whole story/issue remind you of the Russell Brand/Jonathan Ross controversy of late? :)
PeterCooper —
To devs from other platforms, I often introduce Ruby/Rails as an ecosystem with an exceptionaly friendly community of coders who - as individuals or part of companies - are willing to work in a state of the art fashion. Sexist slides? No fit at all.
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Comments
we should bring back Larry Flynt!
This is in these kind of situations where we see the differences between American and European people. Us, European, we’re not giving a fuck! If that disturbs you, just fart and relax.
While there may be different mores on what is appropriate in different countries, this was a conference in the US. But in Europe it’s OK to defend making minorities in a community feel uncomfortable based on objectified stereotypes? Hadn’t realized that was a cultural advantage.
Try this then, next time you’re Stateside, stop by any predominantly African American neighborhood such as Harlem in New York City, do a presentation discussing how American’s sexual prudishness is a form of servitude to outdated cultural Puritanism. To underscore the point of servitude, use lots of pictures of black people depicted as slaves. Don’t use actual pictures of slaves, just close approximations. Then explain that to the folks of Harlem, when they express their umbrage, to just fart and relax: it wasn’t real slavery. I suspect you’ll more than fart in your pants because their won’t be blog posts used to protest.
The real shame here is not the presentation or the half-assed apology, it’s that people are making excuses for and encouraging marginal behavior at the expense of women.
The real shame here is not the presentation or the half-assed apology, it’s that people are making excuses for and encouraging marginal behavior at the expense of women.
I’m taking what is the even less popular middle-way standpoint so I get to be harassed by both sides ;-) I think both sides are right in some ways but that everything depends on the context. I don’t think that, at a major conference, material should be accepted that makes people feel uncomfortable as much as it has. That said, I don’t think the material is universally “wrong” and that, in the right context/location, it works. A bit like how I might show my wife whatever nasty picture I’ve seen online lately but I’m not going to show her parents. Context.
People on the extremes of the spectrum both disagree with the centrist approach because one side thinks their freedom to be universally arrogant is being destroyed and the other side has no tolerance for any sort of offensiveness even if it’s behind closed doors. You’ve got the “talking through a funeral” crowd versus the “don’t ever have any fun at a funeral” crowd and sadly the middle way (being quiet during the service then getting hammered at the wake) is not acceptable to both.
Peter, I agree with you that context matters and that one thing might be perfectly acceptable in the company of some, may not be appropriate in the company of others. I’m from New Jersey and I am an artist with profanity. But I don’t go into my kids kindergarten class and swear though. But were I to, the other adults would admonish me, I would risk censure of some kind or another. But what are the odds one of the other adults would say “Gee, I really think its OK to say ass-munch around five year olds.”
I understand that people want to be “edgy”, but a desire to be “edgy” does not excuse you when you go to far. When you do, its up to the community to say, don’t do that, that’s too far. When they don’t it says something about the community. Does my need to see and share images of scantily clad women trump the impression that can create with females in my profession, that they or their gender are objects for sexual amusement? This was not a private conversation and the message that is being sent here is that if you feel that there is an undercurrent of misogyny in this community, then it is your fault.
Then you have idiotic statements from a leader of the Rails community like “Yet that [male dominated] atmosphere some how doesn’t keep women from joining any of these fields [law, medicine, etc]. It’s from that empirical observation that I draw the conclusion that this argument is just bullshit.” It’s clownish on its face, but to address it, its because programming wasn’t around when women faced similar barriers in those other professions. They experienced the ugliness earlier. Mostly that barrier started coming down before he was born and certainly before he was old enough to appreciate his “instinctual attraction to the female body.” But because he doesn’t see it now doesn’t mean it was never that way. It was. Personal observation is not empirical evidence, unless it can be tested. And even if it were, his scope of personal observation in the US is rather limited in duration.
On the flip side, what do you gain by treading on the line of misogyny? Defenders of this presentation, explain this to me. Maybe it was and maybe it wasn’t misogynist, or not that misogynist, but where is the comparable upside to treading on this line? There were no pictures of male porn stars, so its a pretty easy leap to make that this had a trace at least of misogyny? What is the societal statement though? What boundary is being pushed that it merits the risk of alienating females in our profession. Spell it out.
How people want to behave in private is their business. How a community tolerates public behavior is a reflection on the community. This was public behavior and the community, in this instance, has a segment that is justifying the inappropriate nature of this talk. If I were to go into a kindergarten and spew curses, and the other adults said nothing, that is more a reflection on them. The same is true here.
It seems we pretty much agree on the issue of context and the bizarre DHH post :)
However, I don’t think there’s a single idea of “public.” Blogs provide a parallel. Giles Bowkett’s blog is clearly edgy and he says some pretty contentious stuff (enough to get banned from RubyConf anyway). Someone would figure that out quickly and if they didn’t like what he says, they can avoid it. Ruby Inside, however, is a clean, family-friendly blog, so I wouldn’t start posting nudie pics there (despite quite liking them! ;-)). Likewise, if a conference is giving off edgy, dude-y vibes, you couldn’t expect to go and not be at all offended (bit like going to Burning Man, say). But if it’s a clean, formal event, you don’t expect wacky behavior (as at a 9/11 memorial dinner, say).
As someone who agrees with parts of both “sides”, my defense of the presentation is merely an anti-censorship issue for me, rather than in support of the specific presentation’s techniques. There are many things I don’t like to see or hear, but I can’t support censoring free expression (principally because censorship has been used through the ages to hold back progress). I don’t care if it’s racism, sexism, violence, or whatever, if people want to express those things in the right context (in front of tolerant, prepared people, IMO) and are prepared to face any consequences, let ‘em at it.
Matt Aimonetti is fucking prick and his sexist presentation has hurt not only the Rails but the whole Ruby community, and in end the whole open source community.
I think you and I Peter, are probably splitting hairs, with the difference in our perspective. My quibble is not with the idea of free speech writ large, which should be as if sacred. It is in the details of this particular event. I don’t advocate censoring Mr. Aimonetti in the sense of the governemtn coming down on him. A close analogy that I can draw is when younger, guys would razz each other all the time. Some times, someone one would cross a line, and all the others would simply say that the taunt wasn’t cool or wasn’t funny. It was a conversation/buzz killer. Something along those lines happened here. And instead of Mr. Aimonetti’s peers saying it wasn’t cool, they said it was a good one.
Note for fellow Brits.. doesn’t this whole story/issue remind you of the Russell Brand/Jonathan Ross controversy of late? :)
To devs from other platforms, I often introduce Ruby/Rails as an ecosystem with an exceptionaly friendly community of coders who - as individuals or part of companies - are willing to work in a state of the art fashion. Sexist slides? No fit at all.
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